Tabbin Almond; Bottling up Trouble

Have you ever considered how deeply alcohol is woven into our society's fabric, and what might happen if you step away from it? Join us on the Not Drinking Today podcast as we explore this profound transformation with Tabbin Almond, a coach with This Naked Mind and an author, who overcame her own struggles with alcohol. Growing up amidst a culture that glorified drinking, Tabbin once viewed her consumption as a personal failing. Her candid sharing of navigating university life and a high-stakes advertising career while silently battling alcohol dependency is both raw and inspiring. 

In our conversation, we delve into the empowering impact of Annie Grace’s "This Naked Mind" approach, which offered Tabbin a lifeline when other methods fell short. Her story of finding empowerment through self-awareness and a supportive community since May 2018 is a beacon of hope for those seeking change. The episode also presents a compelling narrative on how Tabbin's personal journey transitioned into her coaching career, emphasiaing the necessity of understanding one's motivations for drinking and the self-work required for lasting change.

Beyond personal stories, we shift focus to societal norms, particularly within organiaations and sports, challenging the status quo of alcohol-centric environments. Tabbin shares insights on promoting an inclusive culture that supports non-drinkers, illustrated by the success of the "Bottling Up Trouble" assessment tool for organiaations.  This episode encourages listeners to reconsider the link between alcohol and enjoyment, promoting a broader societal shift toward inclusivity and empowerment.

Tabbin's info:

Website link:  https://www.winetowatercoaching.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/winetowatercoaching/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/winetowatercoachin

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/katherine-tabbin-almond

LinkedIn Page: https://www.linkedin.com/company/wine-to-water-coaching/

MEG

Megan Webb: https://glassfulfilled.com.au
Instagram: @glassfulfilled
Unwined Bookclub: https://www.alcoholfreedom.com.au/unwinedbookclub
Facebook UpsideAF: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1168716054214678
Small group coaching: https://www.elizaparkinson.com/groupcoaching


BELLA

*November 6-Week Small Group Challenge: Learn more: https://resources.isabellaferguson.com.au/alcoholfreedomchallenge*
Isabella Ferguson: https://isabellaferguson.com.au
Instagram: @alcoholandstresswithisabella
Free Healthy Holiday Helper Email Series: https://resources.isabellaferguson.com.au/offers/L4fXEtCb/checkout

Chapters

• 0:00 Tabin Armand's Journey to Sobriety
• 9:36 From Alcohol to Coaching Success
• 26:38 Changing Alcohol Culture in Organizations
• 33:49 Challenging Alcohol Culture in Sports
• 37:45 Tabin Armand's Book Promotion Interview

Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:33

Hey everyone, welcome to Not Drinking Today podcast. Today I have a guest, Tabin Armand, and Tabin is a fellow this Naked Mind coach and she's also an author. Welcome to the show, Tabin.

Speaker 2: 1:46

Oh, thank you. It's really exciting to be here. I wish I was actually in person with you in Australia rather than all the rain that we're getting here in the UK, but it's lovely to see you.

Speaker 1: 1:55

You know what it's raining today. So it's the one day it's been really nice and today it's raining. It's so nice to have you here, to have you on the show. So please can you start by telling us a bit about your story.

Speaker 2: 2:10

Yeah, I'm in my 60s and I'm the person who tried all the things to get alcohol free or sober, as I would have called it in the early days. I came from a middle-class farming family. There was drinking all around. All the adults drank. I don't think I grew up with anybody in my life who wasn't a regular drinker Not all problematically, but certainly my grandmother. Every evening was a gin and tonic or two, you know, but I never saw her drunk. But I saw other people drunk a lot and in my early teens I vowed I wouldn't become like that because I thought it was a strength of character issue.

Speaker 2: 2:54

And then I started drinking and very quickly I was a very, very enthusiastic social drinker, shall we say, went off to university, which is pretty boozy here in the UK, or certainly where I was. It was I studied French and had a year abroad in France and I landed up in Cognac, of all places. So that didn't help, although I had a great time at the time. And then I went into advertising, which is notoriously boozy, was particularly so then. And if anybody's ever watched Mad Men, that's not an exaggeration, but I wasn't Mad Men in, you know, when they were filming for the sort of sixties and stuff. I think it was even worse. But when I started in the eighties it was certainly pretty heavy, um, uh, and I absolutely loved it. Oh yeah, how lucky am I. I've landed up in a job where I'm being paid quite well and I can go out and have lunch every day and get pissed, and then at the end of the day I just roll across to the pub. I just thought I'd died and gone to heaven. Really it was brilliant.

Speaker 2: 4:03

And then I sort of became aware that it was maybe not quite so good and that other people didn't drink the way that I did. But I sort of pushed those thoughts in the back of my mind. I got married and we had two children and I told myself it can't be a problem because I was absolutely fine not drinking during pregnancy and I hear that a lot from people, that that you know. We, we managed not to drink during pregnancy. Therefore we must be okay. Um, but we then moved from London back to Devon, which is where I am now, where I was brought up as well, and my husband was working away a lot, and I got into that pattern of drinking on my own and kind of just got out of control and I started trying to kid myself. I've only had one gin and tonic, but it was actually about four because of the amount of gin I poured in.

Speaker 2: 5:08

And I didn't want John when John was home, I didn't want him to know how much he was drinking. So if he was drinking red wine I'd have some of that. But then when I was in the kitchen I'd be drinking white wine, maybe out of a wine box, so that he wouldn't know all these sort of tricks. But deep, deep down, I knew that there was a problem. So in the early 2000s it would have been. I thought I need to sort this out. I'd read quite a lot of books so I kind of knew intellectually quite a lot. But as we all know, there's a big difference between that intellectual part of our brain and the subconscious, which is just like a toddler having a tantrum that says I want some booze. I want some booze.

Speaker 2: 5:53

So I was really struggling. So I went to AA. I tried that for two years. I just didn't get on. I felt like I wasn't bad enough inverted commas that they were sort of waiting for me to have the spectacular rock bottom and I didn't really want to do that. I was functioning, I was holding it all together, I had a good job. Nobody would have known, apart from me and maybe my husband. But I now understand that the sort of labelling myself as an alcoholic without even knowing really what one is, and the whole belief that I was flawed and this was a me problem just somehow didn't sit with me. And I remember my, my would-be sponsor saying to me oh, you're in denial, tab in. And I was going I'm not in denial, I'm here. For fuck's sake. You know I can't be in denial, I just this isn't, it's not clicking somehow. And so I then I stopped going to AA. I then read Alan Carr's book the Easy Way to Control Alcohol and that was the first thing I'd read that really made sense to me at a deeper, more subconscious level, at a deeper, more subconscious level, and I went off and did a one day hypnotherapy thing at his clinic in London and that was brilliant.

Speaker 2: 7:26

I didn't drink then for seven and a half years, thought I'd cracked it, totally thought I'd cracked it. And that seven and a half years had some challenges in it, including the breakup of my marriage, which was pretty traumatic. I don't suppose that any marriage breakups aren't, but it wasn't at all easy. I had really significant financial problems and then, maybe unsurprisingly, given all of that stress and trauma, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. And all the way through that, no thought of drinking, literally no thought.

Speaker 2: 8:07

And then I had the initial breast cancer surgery and I went back to the hospital and I had my brother and my daughter who was by then 21, with me and the surgeon said when we did the surgery, we tested seven lymph nodes and the cancer was in all seven and in a really high count. And I can't remember exactly what she said, but what I understood was we need to test to see where it's spread to. Now, whether she actually said that or not, I don't know, but I was shit scared and I went home and my head I can remember that drive home my brother was driving and I was just thinking I'm going to die, I'm not going to survive this and my children are going to be left with just their father, who at the time was in Australia and his mental health was very poor. And these poor children I mean they weren't tiny tots anymore, but they were 19 and 21. They're going to be left on their own and I was just terrified. And I got home and Tom opened a bottle of wine and they were, you know, he and Lucy were going to have a and I just said I'll have a glass. And I just did not want to be in my head. And although I didn't, I drank at least a bottle of wine that night, felt absolutely dreadful the next day.

Speaker 2: 9:36

But I didn't get straight back into my old patterns of drinking, not least because I was having more surgery, quite a lot more surgery, then chemo, then radiotherapy, and if anybody is listening to this, as if I had chemo, chemo and alcohol, just you feel sick enough anyway, you just don't want to do that. But but once I was better I started to slide back into my old ways, but this time because I'd had the seven years alcohol free. A lot of people knew me as a non drinker by then and I had bucket loads of shame about what was going on. So that meant that most of my drinking was on my own Um and I was living on my own. By then.

Speaker 2: 10:20

The children were um, sort of away at university or working or whatever and I just, yeah, it just got out of control. Um, not in a. No, no bad things happened, no drink driving, anything like that but in my head it was really doing me in and so I started Googling and I did that thing Googling am I an alcoholic? Honestly, if anybody ever does that, you've got a problem. I mean, you know the answer. If you're even typing that into the search engine, you know that there is an issue. But you're sort of clutching at straw saying, no, I'm not really one, there's just a little button that I need to press somewhere and it'll all be all right again.

Speaker 2: 11:05

And there kind of was because that led me to this naked mind and as a Brit, I actually I started to hate Annie Grace because it was so American and so over the top, and so we're not leaving you alone. You know, we know who you are, we know where you live, kind of thing. And I felt really almost hounded and the heavy sell that is the sort of the American culture kind of was really an antithesis to to how I wanted things to happen. But that's what I needed, um, so, uh, actually it was the very best thing that could have happened. And one morning particularly hung over, and I can remember I can picture myself back in the office when I was still working full-time in advertising and I sat at my computer and there was an email from Annie about a three-month course that was called the intensive course, which was actually coached by Annie herself, because it was in the very early days of this naked mind, and I remember thinking this is what I just just do it. It cost about a thousand pounds, I think, or maybe a thousand dollars. It was a lot of money and I didn't have it. I just do it. It cost about a thousand pounds, I think, or maybe a thousand dollars. It was a lot of money and I didn't have it. I just put it on a credit card. I thought you've got to do this and then had that instant buyer's remorse, but I just thought you've got to do this and it was honestly the best thing. And I always share the story of how much I hated that sales approach, because I know that a lot of Brits and probably a lot of Australians as well, and Kiwis it's kind of not our way. But I just suspended all of that and did it.

Speaker 2: 12:55

I read the book. I was pretty well, you know, I read this Naked Mind. Oh, yes, yes, yes, that's me. She knows me. You know, just I read this naked mind. Oh, yes, yes, yes, that's me, she knows me, you know um and uh. And then I did the course and, um, I was very quickly alcohol free. Um, I had my last drink on the 12th of May 2018, um, which was I was with my daughter. We were going to do the moonwalk, which is a cause of breast cancer and particularly of estrogen receptor breast cancer, which is the one I had. I didn't know that because nobody had told me that, so it was only when I was fairly far through the course with Annie that I discovered it. I thought why has nobody even said this? And, interestingly, no one medical has ever said it to me in the 10 years since, which is kind of worrying but anyway, um, I I got alcohol.

Speaker 2: 14:13

I've never drunk since that day, apart from, I did have an accidental sip of beer where I'd ordered an alcohol-free beer and got one with alcohol and I tasted it and I said to the barman I don't think this is alcohol-free, and he was mortified. He was like I think he thought I was going to turn into a werewolf or something, and that's about a drink, you know, can you give, and I just, oh, I'm so sorry. I think it was on my daughter's hen weekend. We were in Porto and a whole round of drinks was free, which so it was probably a very expensive mistake for him, but that's so. I can't say I haven't touched alcohol, but I haven't intentionally touched alcohol since, um, and it, yeah, got my life back, really, uh, got my mojo, my energy, my sense of life's worth living and I don't hate myself anymore, and I really did. But I just beat myself up the whole time. Um, I went on. Uh, annie organized a conference in 2018 in Denver. That was the first of the conferences that they did. Uh, and I went to that. Um, which was amazing. It just sort of consolidated everything, and Annie then was talking about recruiting some coaches to train them and she mentioned it and I didn't sort of feel it was right for me at the time.

Speaker 2: 15:38

I think I wanted to be more secure in being alcohol free. I'd had that long spell and then drunk again and I just didn't feel confident. What I now realize the difference between the hypnotherapy and this naked mind methodology was that with hypnotherapy I just paid somebody to reprogram my brain for me and I didn't do any of the work and I didn't do any of the self work to understand why I drank. I just paid somebody to rewire my brain, paid somebody to rewire my brain. But if you don't do the work and if you don't really dig into those beliefs and reframe them, it can come unstuck and it did for me. So I wouldn't be so arrogant as to say I will never drink again. But my life is so much better and I understand so much more about myself and other people. I can't foresee a circumstance where I would think it was a good idea. But who knows? So anyway, I was approached again the following year about coach training and by then I carried on the personal development work and started reading more and more about it and thought, yeah, and I think the massive change in just my outlook on life meant that I thought I want other people to be able to get this as well. And people had started asking me how I'd done it. And you know, you look so much better. You seem to seem to be rocking it. You know, yeah, I think I could pay this forward a bit.

Speaker 2: 17:25

So I trained as a coach uh, like you did, um, and then my plan was to do it just at weekends and, uh, evenings, as a bit of a side hustle really, yeah. But I found the more I coached, the more I loved it and thought this is kind of what you're supposed to be doing, tavin, you know. So I uh, I cut my hours in advertising and and consolidated, just started work four days. That gave me a whole day. And then my mum died and left me some money not huge amounts, but enough for me to feel confident in resigning from my job not retiring, but resigning from my job and building the business and I knew that I wouldn't be stressed job and building the business and I knew that I wouldn't be stressed. I could just focus on building the business. So I've been coaching full time since the beginning of 2022. Yeah, and so I have my little coaching business.

Speaker 2: 18:35

I coach I called it wine to water coaching, which is a bit irreverent, I, but it was um. For me, that was the real miracle. It was yeah, um, uh, yeah, so that's I coach people. Um, I have a pod, like you have a podcast which is called the alcohol debate. It's not a uh. There are bits of how to, how to, if you want to change your relationship, things that you can do, but it's not a thou shalt not drink podcast at all. It's just trying to bust some of the myths, really, uh. So I I took to a lot of experts and some people who have changed their lives. Yeah, just trying to be a counterbalance to our very pro-alcohol culture.

Speaker 1: 19:29

And.

Speaker 2: 19:29

I've written a book Amazing.

Speaker 1: 19:34

Look at what you've done.

Speaker 2: 19:35

I know it's extraordinary. If I think back, you know, and I coach, I think most of us tend to 40s onwards, not exclusively, and who have been working a lot of the time. My clients have been working in industries and professions where client entertaining is a big factor or where there's a lot of drinking for stress relief. There's stress innate in the job and people are drinking because they feel that alcohol will help them unwind at the end of a very busy workday or whatever. So I realised that there's a kind of an issue with our workplaces, that the culture of being expected or even encouraged to drink is causing people to become to sort of enter into alcohol use disorder because their their drinking is. We know it's an addictive substance. So if you are being expected to drink an addictive substance on a regular basis, you're likely to become addicted to it, and that is on the employer and not on the employee. Now we can help employees by increasing awareness, but actually businesses and organizations are paying a really heavy price without realizing it. And so the book it's called, bottling Up, trouble how alcohol is harming your business and what to do about it. And I figured that most businesses worry about the bottom line. They worry about their profits. So if I could demonstrate to them that the alcohol-centric culture of their organization was contributing to poor productivity and therefore poor profitability or affecting their profitability, they would sit up and take notice. The bottom line always counts. If I just said your employees will be happier if they are not addicted to alcohol, and a boss could turn around and say, yeah, well, that's on them. But if I could demonstrate very actively so that's what I set out to do Quite hard, but there is data out there.

Speaker 2: 22:47

So I looked at the cost of absenteeism so people being off sick with alcohol, and also did some in addition to the research, the published research. I commissioned Ipsos Mori to do some research specifically for me and I just wanted to handle on right now what's going on and found that 6% of adults working adults in the UK I only did it in the UK 6% have been absent in the last year because of a hangover. Now that's likely to be more because people will always underclaim. So it's not a huge number, but that is 6% who are saying, yeah, that's me, most of them, it's a regular occurrence, it's happened more than four times and virtually nobody. This was the big sample, this was a sample of 2000,.

Speaker 2: 23:49

Virtually nobody tells the truth about why they're absent. Because the shame and the stigma and the is it going to jeopardize my career thing. So employers are kidding themselves and and also they will. People will say that they're off sick with with stress and anxiety or depression. But you and I know that all of those conditions are made much worse, if not actually caused, by alcohol.

Speaker 2: 24:20

So the absenteeism, it's sort of the contribution of alcohol towards absenteeism, is hidden. It's much worse than we realize. And then there's the factor of presenteeism is hidden. Uh, it's much worse than we realize. And then there's the factor of presenteeism as well, which is the, the name given to when people are at work but either hung over or maybe even still drunk or drunk from drinking at lunchtime. And there's a brilliant organization here in the uk called the institute of alcohol and they've done some work on the cost of presenteeism to businesses. So I set it all up in financial terms for businesses and then look at the mental health impact and there's also a diversity and inclusion thing going on as well.

Speaker 2: 25:10

We're a very mixed culture racially now and there are people, races and cultures and religions who don't drink. And when I don't know the boss says to a group of trainees okay, who's coming to the pub, I'm buying. And a young Muslim girl says no, because she doesn't want to go to the pub, she doesn't want to be with drunk people, she certainly doesn't want to drink herself. She is made to feel like an outcast, she's sort of othered and that's not right. So it's multi-layered. So I just go through in the book all the ways that that's not right. So it's multilayered. So I just go through in the book all the ways that that's harming businesses.

Speaker 2: 26:07

And we know that young people and I'm sure it's the same in Australia, gen Z are not drinking the way that we did, which is wonderful. But they don't want to land up in a workplace where they've got these sort of old-fashioned Luddite bosses who are saying come on, everybody to the pub. You know they don't have respect for these guys. And then there's, you know, the aspect of sexual harassment and that's very, very strongly linked to alcohol. So there are a huge number of factors that come into play to alcohol. So there are a huge number of factors that come into play. And then I talk about how do you change the culture in an organisation so that social events aren't all revolving around alcohol and that people who don't want to drink aren't made to feel excluded. And we have that expression aren't made to feel excluded. That, and you know we have that expression it's bonding over a beer. We don't, we don't need beer to bond. You know there are other ways and so, yeah, that's. That's really, in a nutshell, what the book's about.

Speaker 1: 27:03

Yeah, sounds amazing and how's it? Has you had feedback?

Speaker 2: 27:09

Yeah, yeah, it's. It launched in September and so I still can't quite pinch myself. It got to Amazon bestseller number one in, but in its categories it got to number one, which is really, really good. And you know, the point of writing the book was to start getting people to take notice of this and to start working with businesses to change the culture and to work with leaders to help them have the courage to say well, actually we're going to change things around here and so having that number one status is really helpful for that. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 28:06

Wow, congratulations.

Speaker 2: 28:08

Thank you, yeah, it's really exciting. It's really exciting, yeah, and what I did as part of the book? I worked with a very clever software engineer and developed an assessment tool which is called the bottling up trouble assessment tool. Answer a series of questions so like multiple choice questions and get a risk score. So they answer them about their organisation, where they work. So, whether they're the business owner in HR, on the board or an employee, they can answer those questions and that can become the basis for starting a conversation in their workplace. So if it's somebody on the board, they can say I just did this about our company and do you know what guys? I think maybe we should be looking at this. Or it could be an employee who goes to their line manager or somebody on the board and says look, it's been worrying me for a while, I've been feeling uncomfortable, but actually I've just done this assessment and here's how we scored and here's a risk score and here's a commentary. So they get a score and then an email which follows up with a. You know, these are the areas you might want to look at. These are things you're doing well, because most companies are doing some stuff well. But you know, let's just have a look, and so, because I thought it was important that people can kind of personalize it to their organization a bit, so anybody who wants to do that uh, it's very easy. You literally just put type in www, bottling up trouble, no spaces or underscores, just bottlingroublecom, and that will take you straight to the area of the website which has got the assessment. You just click a button to take the assessment. It's a double opt-in, because I don't want loads of bots doing it, because that won't be very helpful. So you then get an email with a unique link for you and you can then just do the assessment and get your, get your, your results, and that's proving to be quite eye opening for people.

Speaker 2: 30:25

There are things like one of the things that has really surprised people is the corporate gifting policy, because giving alcohol as a corporate gift is so common. Um, when working in advertising, the place was awash with champagne at christmas. Um, uh, I spoke to somebody, uh, who I used to work with and he said that he had given up alcohol and had a real struggle to do so. And at the at the at year end, there was a sort of big push from the finance director to get all the bills paid before the 31st of december, so that the figures for the year looked good and um. So, and the guy said there'll be a reward for the person that gets the biggest proportion of outstanding money in by year end.

Speaker 2: 31:21

And this guy won it, and his prize was a case of Shably. He was trying desperately not to drink, so it's just like wrong. Nobody asked what he would like. You know, um, and you know that's. That's the reality. So giving alcohol as a corporate gift in any way, yeah, really needs so. And that was the sort of thing where people select, you know, and and people say you know who doesn't like a bottle of bubbly? Well, I don't, you don't Increasing numbers, don't? Could I have something else please? Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 32:00

And you know what, back in the day, that would have been enough and enabling, if I'd say, was having a break and I was given a present, that would be enough for me to start drinking again. Oh, totally, yeah, yeah, I mean for me to start drinking again.

Speaker 2: 32:12

Oh, totally yeah. Yeah, I mean for me too, you know, but before I discovered this naked mind, and when I was sort of going through AA and really struggling, I would sort of have spells where I say, right, the only answer is to have no booze in the house. There could be whiskey in the house, because I hate whiskey and I would never drink it, but anything else couldn't be in the house. And but anything else couldn't be in the house. And so if I'd been given a case of Shadley, all bets would have been off, I would have just been straight back to it.

Speaker 1: 32:37

So interesting your whole journey and the book is so good. I haven't come across any like that. I have interviewed people on here who are authors, but never this aspect or perspective.

Speaker 2: 32:51

No, I think that's what the publisher said, because the book came about. I had somebody who was coaching me in my business and we were talking and she said that sounds like a book tabbing. And I was going, I couldn't write a book, I wouldn't know where to start, and she hauled me up instantly on. You know, well, that's a limiting belief. Um, uh and um said well, I know somebody, the person who published my book. So she in business publishing, you have an agent who may publish or may send it. You know somebody else. So I spoke to this woman and she said yeah, I think this is really unique, there's nothing like it and it's needed.

Speaker 1: 33:39

Let's do it so yeah, the rest is history. Look at it. I think it's brilliant.

Speaker 2: 33:46

Thank you. Well, I just hope it does some good. I felt really bad, you know, with sort of pushing for people to sign up for the Kindle so that it could get to that number one status, and I kept stressing this is it may seem like a vanity project, and of course it is nice to have written something that's got Amazon bestseller beside it, but but that's not what it's about. It's about let's accelerate the rate of change, because there is change happening, but not fast enough, and the longer it takes, the more lives are ruined or ended by alcohol. So I just want to change things fast.

Speaker 1: 34:23

Yeah, totally. And when you said before about you know the younger generation because I've got adult children and also a 15 year old but when you said you know they don't and also a 15 year old but when you said you know they don't drink as much and that's my experience too with them but if they ended up in a job where it was pushed on them, I just felt really angry and I thought no one better bloody do that to my kids, yeah, or anyone's kids, and so I totally think it's there's an urgency to this and that's just one of the things.

Speaker 2: 34:52

but it just made me get really angry and think yes, yeah, yeah, and I, it's so culturally accepted, um. I, on my podcast I interviewed a guy who recently retired from professional rugby and he played for the club and and he played for England and um, he actually is not drinking himself these days, but he said it's completely ingrained. And in professional sport in particular, why are we giving alcohol the job of helping people to bond? A rugby player who's injured knows that part of his rehab is to stay off booze, that that's how they can recover quicker. They're not stupid. They know that this stuff is harmful, but it's just in the, it's kind of like in the DNA of sports really, and it's so inappropriate, like in the dna of of sports really, and it's so inappropriate, um and unhelpful.

Speaker 2: 36:01

And there are top sportsmen who who don't drink um, but it's sort of still a little bit of a secret. I mean, there's a great rugby player, johnny wilkinson, who hardly drinks. There's Sam Warburton who hardly drinks. But in the main, especially rugby and alcohol are kind of intertwined. Professional football here there have been some really high profile footballers who have fallen foul of alcohol and you know young men, lots of money in their pocket, which is certainly true with football, maybe less with rugby, it happens in cricket, it's just, it's not appropriate. So I you know, one of the things I'd like to do is to start and who am I kidding? Professional sportsmen are unlikely to listen to an old lady, but somehow we need to get that message across. But somehow we need to get that message across, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 36:58

I mean, it's just one of those things that there's quite a lot of them with alcohol, but it just boggles the mind like how it ever became such a big part of something like sport and even the people that go and watch these games, which if you went and watched or played without alcohol, is a massive bonding experience in itself. But people go and watch it and just get smashed Absolutely. Yeah, but it's something that you could do not drinking. That would be so enjoyable.

Speaker 2: 37:27

Absolutely. I mean, I'm a massive rugby fan. I go to every game, I yell my head off, I get really involved in it. I don't need alcohol to have a good time, no, no. But society says we do. Massive rugby fan, I go go to every game, I yell my head off, I get really involved in it.

Speaker 1: 37:33

It's alcohol to have a good time no, no, but society says we do and it's um, and it is a big part of sport and other things that you wouldn't even think about. It's scary. So I love that you're bringing you know the conversation out um, about that as well. So what I will do in the show notes is put all any links, the name of your book where you know links for everything. So that will be in the show notes. Thank you so much for coming on, tab, and it's been so good to hear your story and about the book.

Speaker 2: 38:06

Oh, it's fantastic. It's fantastic to talk one-on-one. I know we've been in big Zoom. Things with this make it mine. It's lovely to have a one-on-one chat.